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Monday, 23 May 2005
Chocolate and Tortoiseshell = ?
Topic: color genetics
I am always entertained by color genetics. I used to be consumed by predicting what color bunnies would be born if I paired certain rabbits. I learned a LOT by going after RED rabbits with French and English angoras for 8 years. [The red factor has been put on a back burner while I go after HEALTH in German crosses (not as easy as I hoped)].

At any rate, it struck me last night that Sydney and Neo have created an interesting litter.

Sydney is chocolate (and I while don't have a picture of her at the ready, here is an English angora I had years ago to show the color):



Neo is tortoiseshell:


and from their gene sharing, we got
4 black rabbits and 4 white rabbits:




This is a colorful business!

So here's how it works:
The dominant genes are ABCDE.
The recessive genes are abcde.
There are few moderately dominant and modifying genes, but in this case they do not come into play.

A complete discussion of how color shows itself in a black rabbit is here on the blog:
BareHare January 2004

Neo is aaB-CcD-ee.
Sydney is aabbCcD-E-.

I know what these parents are genetically because:
1. I have bred them before and seen what color bunnies they had. Neo has never had a chocolate bunny, but both his grandmothers were chocolate.
2. I have bred them before and know there are UNDERLYING genes in the "D" and "E" positions...therefore the white bunnies posses wild cards in that department!

In fact, I was SURE Neo had a chocolate gene. And he may have. That does not mean it will come out in any litter, even though the odds were fabulous that IF he had a chocolate gene, it would pair with Sydneys' and produce some chocolate bunnies.

They had black bunnies that are:
aaBbC-D-Ee
And white bunnies that are:
aab-cc--e-

Recessives can cruise along undetected for generations and then express themselves one fine day. But the nice thing about Sydneys' bunnies is that I KNOW each white and black bunny has a recessive "b" chocolate gene from Sydney, a recessive "a" self color gene from either parent, and a recessive "e" gene from Neo. The NEXT generation from this litter will produce those recessive expressions IF I pick the right parent.

Want to read more?
Links for color genetics in angora rabbits:
Island Gems
Kanien

Posted by countrywool at 8:57 AM EDT
Updated: Monday, 23 May 2005 9:00 AM EDT
Post Comment | View Comments (9) | Permalink

Monday, 23 May 2005 - 4:42 PM EDT

Name: ragtimelil

I love this discussion....if I only had the mental energy to follow it...lol. But what's the deal with reds? I've been trying to do the same thing with a gorgeous red colored male I have (with little fleece due to Satin blood) and have wanted to get that color in something with adequate fleece.
L

Monday, 23 May 2005 - 4:46 PM EDT

Name: ragtimelil

love this discussion - if I only had the mental energy right now to follow it.....lol.
But what is the deal with reds? I've been hoping to get antoher true red from a red English/Satin male I have who doesn't have much length on his fleece.

Monday, 23 May 2005 - 4:48 PM EDT

Name: Lil

Oops, sorry. Thought the first one was lost....you can trash the second post. duh.....

Monday, 23 May 2005 - 6:25 PM EDT

Name: Betsy

Middle/High School gentics IS useful!!

Monday, 23 May 2005 - 9:17 PM EDT

Name: claudia k

reds...that would take ayear totalk about. Suffice it to say...the red you have in yor satin boy has rufus modifers IN ADDITION TO either a fawn or torte pattern, which both have "ee" genetics. Gathering all those rufus genes along with a good coat has been nigh impossible for me so far. I've gotten GREAT red color with lousy coat, and great coats with little red. Along with the red line I was using I also got cow hocks and lousy teeth. So I abandoned it for the good of the breed. Someday I may get better rabbits to work with and try again!

Tuesday, 24 May 2005 - 2:19 PM EDT

Name: Ragtimelil

Oh dear. Now I'm hesitant to pursue the red. Oh, well. He has produced good, healthy babies with good coats. Maybe I'll just leave it at that. I did copy that genotyping worksheet and I've been having fun getting everyone listed.

YET another question - How can you tell the difference between a blue and a black? I've studied the pictures until my eyes hurt and I'll be blessed if I can see the difference. I recently acquired a German/French doe who I was calling black, but she's a little different from my French blacks.
Any clues?
Thanks,
ps. My problem with the genotyping, is I can't really tell what color my rabbit actually is!!!!!

Tuesday, 24 May 2005 - 2:35 PM EDT

Name: CLAUDIA K

I've only had two blue rabbits born here, so I honestly can't remember exact details BUT, when they are born they are a true steel gray NOT black. If you have a black bunny born in the same litter, by day 4 you can see the difference very clearly. (And I did).

When blue rabbits get older, their noses are always dusty looking, it seems to me, but I don't have any here to show that.

IF you go hunting on the web you will find baby bunny litter pictures...I just saw them at a farm (western US), but I don't remember where.

Tuesday, 24 May 2005 - 2:45 PM EDT

Name: Lil

Thanks. I guess she's black. She wasn't born here so I didn't get to see that part, but her head is definately black.
L

Wednesday, 25 May 2005 - 4:39 PM EDT

Name: Lil

OK, any tricks for seeing red in a brown eye? I thought I saw somebody in my barn with a red cast but when I took them all outside yesterday, every dang one of them had a perfectly brown eye, except the REWs of course.

And one source says a chestnut agouti has a bb since the rings are brown, instead of black as in the chinchilla. Another source shows a chestnut agouti in the chart as having a B......HELP!

Wednesday, 25 May 2005 - 6:04 PM EDT

Name: claudia k

I will address the red-cast eye tomorrow on the blog.
Chestnut agouti can only be A-B-C-D-E-. Where the "little b=chcolate, right?" discussion gets going is when people notice that a true agouti has brown SECTIONS of hairs on the face and body, but that is a result of the banding that happens on each hair shaft...just like wild rabbits. The banding is what makes an agouti an agouti, and ALL the agouti color patterns are banded with various deep and dilute shades. This color variation does not make the genetics any different.

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